Gazete ETÜ Had an Interview With Faculty Member Prof. Ahmet Yaşar Ocak

As Gazete ETÜ, we had a chat with Prof. Ahmet Yaşar Ocak, a member of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, Department of History, who is well known with his research and books on history. Having graduated from Istanbul University, Department of History, Prof. Ocak had his master’s degree in history from Hacettepe University, and Ph.D. on Turcology from the University of Strasbourg. After getting tenure and Professor title at Hacettepe University, Department of History, Prof. Ocak has been serving as a faculty member at TOBB ETÜ, Department of History. The author of numerous scientific papers published in national and international journals, Prof. Ocak was awarded on 5 January, 2016, by the Foundation on Service to Turkish Culture, with the “Award of Gratitude for Services to Turkish Culture”. We had a most enjoyable conversation with the professor, looking at the groups and personalities as well as structures in Islamic history, and presenting an academic perspective on numerous hotly debated issues of the day, while getting to know him better.

• We would like to hear what you would say about Ahmet Yaşar Ocak. You should be well aware that family plays a major role in the life of every individual. And we want to start with the family structure Professor Ocak had during his childhood years. Could you provide us a brief introduction?

That’s a difficult question. I was born and raised in a provincial town. I received my primary and secondary education there. My father was a shopkeeper. Our family was a middle class one. I grew up and got my education without feeling substantial financial strain. My father had a major influence on my choice of my profession. My dad would love history in general, and Ottoman history in particular. And whenever he would travel to Istanbul to buy some merchandise for his store, he would also bring along some books for me. I would read those books to prepare for the courses. Since my childhood, I was interested in history, you could say. I grew up in a conservative family. Conservative families attach major importance to history. My father, God bless him, did not make me feel any shortage or stress during my years in Istanbul, studying. That is why I was able to buy many books. In those days, I developed a fairly large library. I love to read; especially Turkish and Western classics have contributed immensely to my development since my childhood. Once again, my father loved to read historical novels. He would read Feridun Fazıl Tülbentçi’s novels on Ottoman history, such as Osmanoğulları, Yavuz Sultan Selim Ağlıyor, or Barbaros Hayrettin Geliyor. He also loved to make me read them and listen to me, from time to time. Furthermore, in my childhood years some very elderly people, who grew up in the last decades of the Ottoman Empire, as representatives of the traditional old culture, would come to our house as well as to my father’s shop, and tell their memories. It is crucial to stay at such an environment. That is why I can safely say that it was my family which made my growth and education possible.

• We also want to talk about your successful career as an important academic, as well as your services in the field of history. But before that, we are also curious about what you do in an ordinary day, and what you have fun doing. In other words, tell us about what would you like to do if you had a spare day. Could you please tell us a bit about these?

I don’t have a standard program, a strict daily schedule I go through as if I am a robot. I usually go to bed early, and get up early. I prefer to work in the early hours of the morning, before others wake up. Of course I do the daily stuff everyone does, but I spend at least part of my day to prepare for the next day’s classes, to read the new pieces in the literature of my field as well as the books I am interested in, and to work on the topics I am investigating at the time. In the olden days I would also set aside some time for sports. But unfortunately I do not get the chance to do so any more. Another established habit of mine is to watch the evening news on the TV, even though nowadays it does not make one particularly happy. When I am tired, I either listen to some Turkish Classical Music, or watch an old movie on the computer. I have a preference for pre-1970s detective mysteries, World War II epics, and history and western movies of Hollywood. I am not into recent action movies. I believe that after 1970s, cinema evolved into something else.

• One can debate the extent of our society’s knowledge about history. What do you think about the society’s awareness about the history? As you are probably aware, recently history became a theme of series and movies. Nowadays many historical novels are being written and draw readers. What would you recommend to those who want to learn accurate history, and the see the full picture?

I think that our society has no real conception of history. If it did, low-quality history novels most of which are bereft of any literary value as well as robust structure, authored solely to make a name and earn money would not have filled the shelves. Those books are not worthy of even a single read. Yet, these are printed in unbelievable numbers, and are promoted aggressively at bookstores, occupying huge stands to draw the attention of readers. Our people read these novels as if they were texts really relating historical facts. They watch series or movies as if they are references to actual history. The reason for that lies in the lack of a true awareness about history. It is mostly a result of the cultural trauma we have still been suffering extensively. That trauma made our society suffer ideologically and culturally from virtual “schizophrenia”. We are rendered unable to discuss any problem in a civil manner, without the discussion devolving into a conflict. That is why, for an ordinary literate man in Turkey, history is not a scientific discipline that can serve as a means to becoming aware of and learning about the actual events with a view to enhance the individual’s intellectual capacity and instill an accurate understanding and assessment of the day. It is rather a story to reinforce the epic and ideological sentiments, and a safe harbor to seek shelter from social upheavals. That is why actual history isn’t something our people is very fond of. Our people would prefer a “virtual history” as a means to ideological and spiritual satisfaction. Do you need proof for that statement? Just look at the shelves of bookstores, or TV series, or documentaries –if you dare to call them as such– on the TV...But I don’t hold our people responsible. For, what prevents the development of a robust culture and hence awareness of history lies with the low-quality and ideological history education which serves to tell a specific tale, rather than to instill an inquisitive and analytical perspective. You cannot expect otherwise from a people who suffered that great cultural trauma, and who grew up with that kind of training. Therefore, I actually hold responsible the intellectuals who suffered the cultural trauma first, and who proceeded to reflect it on the society afterwards. A true awareness of history would not only reinforce the character and identity of the society, but also provide the latter with an accurate perspective on itself as well as the rest of the world. And the burden, in this context, falls on our universities. Unfortunately most of the academic studies on history our universities currently engage in have yet to leave the ideological fragmentation caused by the cultural trauma I described, and thus, to evolve into actual research in history. And that is a very difficult feat in our society; such an achievement, I believe, will take a long time. Therefore, engaging in real research on history is not only difficult and expensive in this country, but also does not draw much praise in the society or the academic community. If your publications fall within certain ideological frameworks, you will develop better connections and a larger audience. But if you try and venture out of these established patterns and the conventional mindset, people would consider you a threat, and can try to belittle, attack, and even ignore what you write. In Turkey, families do not want their children to get a degree in history, as their understanding of history does not go beyond stories of valor, and as they think an education in history does not allow one to become a part of the state mechanism, or earn substantial sums. That is why, intelligent kids either do not apply for departments of history, of even if they try to do so, their families block such an endeavor. Yet, the study of history requires a intelligent mind capable of insight and quick thinking, as well as a critical and analytical perspective. On the matter of true history, on the other hand... It is safe to say such a label is problematic in and of itself. Historians never dream of an “absolutely true history”. They can unveil truth, or they may fail in that quest. Therefore, learning true history is not an easy task. Above all, it requires a robust training. But if your question refers to the perspective of the readers, reading serious works of popular or academic history would be a good starting step. Novels, movies, or series are not useful means to learning history. They are for entertainment purposes only. That is why novelists and movie producers distort history to match their own perspective. For, the aim of the novelist or the producer is not to teach history, but to draw attention.

• Thank you very much for your recommendations on how to learn history; could you please talk a bit about your authoring as well? Which one takes the forefront in that process: traveling or doing research? What do you think about traveling as an element of learning history?

I believe, studying in libraries or archives alone would not suffice for the work of a good historian. One should also get out to the field, wander around the sites the topic of your interest took place or the person you study lived, check out the traces and remnants there, and talk to the people. In a nutshell, a historian should do both. For, they are complementary activities. Wandering around the sites where incidents take place will open up your mind and thoughts, and will draw you into the event you are studying about. It makes you imagine how it could have happened. It thus adds a certain level of depth and attractiveness to the interpretations and analyses you may come up with. Personally, I try to apply this recommendation of mine, to the extent my means allow.

• We will enjoy listening to your advice blended in substantial experience. Finally, what pieces of advice would you extend for our friends from the department of history, as well as the other departments of our university?

Studying in a robust and methodical perspective, without ever getting bored of it, and with solid love, on the knowledge associated with the field they are interested in. In a nutshell, it is necessary to work without expecting any tangible return, with an amateur research spirit and scientific curiosity, but with a set of professional and scientific methods. In other words, the work should not be considered a burden, but a kind of a spiritual delight. If you don’t love work, you will come empty handed. If you love, though, you can proceed to production. The knowledge you produce serves a function. Otherwise, you would remain limited to the routine and standard knowledge of the field, and can never make contributions.

Interview: Ahmet Suat Özdemir, Haydar İleli